10 man raiding had its first start in Karazhan back in the burning Crusade. It was an incredibly popular amount of people to bring to a raid, and it made Karazhan very accessible. Later on they kind of went with 25 man as the default, and then in wrath of the Lich King created 10 and 25 man versions of all raids. However the 25 man mode was always the real version, and the 10 man was just kind of playing second fiddle to the actual raiding.
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How many players have 10 friends in World of Warcraft?
Having not played WoW in a number of years now, it sounds very strange to me, being an outsider technically, to hear things like "Oh, they got rid of it because it was fun and people liked it." That's not their explicitly stated reasoning, but that is it, isn't it? Sounds bizarre, don't you think?
Idk what the heck is this circlejerk about 10 man raids going on here.
But the main point why 10 mans are discouraged – because they are "too small". They don't feel like "RAID". 10 man is just two parties put together.
Raids are at their basic principle – an adventure that is on different scale than any previous ones. It should not be "double dungeon", it should be "raid" – in terms of player experience.
Just a reminded – in WoW Classic, most dungeons have player cap of 10, with several exceptions (BRD, Scholo, Stratholme, and something else). Originally, UBRS and LBRS had cap up to 15 players. Yet it was not a Raid Instance (resets once a week) – it was Dungeon Instance (resets at least once a day).
Just imagine doing e.g. Alterac Valley bg with 10 vs 10 teams – it will be the most miserable experience.
Or just remember some encounters where raid should split – e.g. Thorim in Ulduar. It literally doesn't even feel like a raid boss – because there is five people standing in arena, and five people running corridor. And in either of those parts – you just feel like you are doing darn Halls of Lightning run, not an Ulduar raid boss – because literally same enemies, same walls, same floors, same ambience around.
10m was considered more difficult in Cataclysm. The opposite of what you said.
i remember doing dark shaman 10 heroic as prot pala (crit>haste>mastery>parry build) solo tank without healers, and having 3 583 affli locks, 2 fury warriors, 2 fire mages, 2 combat rogues 😀 damn miss these days – besides affli locks and fire mages doing 2m+ openers, prot pala did double and combat rogues close to that, you dont blink your eyes yet and wolves are dead lmfao.
I completely stopped raiding when 10-man’s were removed. Some of the best relationships and long terms friends that I made were from 10-man’s.
Now it's not a perfect fix, but they could release 10 mam mythic raiding after the world first of the current mythic system. That way they could have an easier time "balancing" and nerfing the fights anyway. That would allow more casual guilds who want to do end game with some fights having a mythic only phase a chance after the world first kill has been achieved on the hardest difficulty.
That blizzcon vid he should of just gone:
“20 players subbing is more money then 10 players subbing. Hence only 20 man. We just want MONEY people.” mic drop
Incredible how the "10-man was easier" tale is still around. From Cata onward, 10-man was ALWAYS harder than 25-man.
Blizzard will never bring 10-man raiding back. As you said, 20-man is what the competitive players and Blizzard want. It's sad, because 10-man was the most fun I ever had playing the game. I made lots of friends in 10-man, but I made very, very few in 20-man, even while getting CE multiple times. It's just hard to connect with people when there are so many voices. I would play again in a heartbeat if they said 10-man Mythic was coming back. But it won't.
Wonder if they would ever just go to 14 or 15 man raiding in the future and scale to that size as the new norm considering even top elite guilds have trouble keeping a 20+ roster.
After having done and help coordinate 40 player raids back in vanilla wow back before TBC came out and then getting to size that down to 10 was a freaking blessing! I wish they still had 10 man raids it made for a much tighter group and less headaches.
Blizzard did nothing, it just died, activision came in, resurrected its corpse into a dilapidated zombie, then slowly had it act in the laziest and least work intensive manner while hoping for as much immediate profit as possible while not caring for any long term investments… because activision is supposed to know how business works. With little profit and no future sustainability. Yep, they know how business works…
10 man still exists and it has NEVER went away. Lots of low IQ scum in these comments spouting low IQ statements that aren't true to begin with.
"or you can just play really slow computer and play heroic" ….they have no shame do they? That is a rhethorical question, don't answer that, we all know the answer.
Blizzard is like that guy that's having a huge laugh while he does the fishing reel thing with his hand and raises up his middle finger ever so slowly…
Don't take the Mark of the Beast (666)!
I remember doing Garrosh with 1 tank, no healer, 15 dps and 4 carries.
I wonder if the addons could be reduced as they make it harder and harder to design fights.
We did heroic siege thok with 1 blood dk tank on 10 man back in mop lol good times
Honestly this is probably the core of what is wrong with WoW anymore. the devs have what they want and don't care if their players don't want that when they really need to understand that they don't develop the game for themselves but for the players. That it is the causals that they should never disregard as they are the bulk of their money, that the 'hardcore' players can't exist without because the causals are the ones that feed the hardcore players in content and community.
This is such a hot topic. Because people think homogenization is class identity. But is a boon that only you can apply make you unique? Or is it how you play and use skills that does? Long standing question…
This is the main reason our guild died so many years ago :'(
10 man raiding started in vanilla. Was eliminated in late Vanilla other than UBRS
12:28 The current system doesn't work that's the problem. The game is losing sub every xpac. Most people did 10 players not because it was easier but because raiding with 20+ players is chaotic and simply not fun for many players. There's always mythic+ but it gets repetitive at the end of an xpac. At least in SL the heroic mode is harder and about on par with the old heroic mode (pre mythic) because before SL the heroic mode was as easy as the past normal mode (pre mythic) which meant casual midcore players had nothing to do when it comes to raiding. I think we cleared Nyalotha heroic in like 3 weeks or so and then it was it.
this makes sense but you are forgetting they cut that because the playerbase was already shrinking.
10 man into 25 man was a great idea. Once flex came out raiding died for me =/
With the budget and resources they had there was no reason they couldn't have kept giving 10 man raids this whole time
i really hate ian.
As someone who is bad at raids, it is much easier to find newer, more casual or less skilled players willing to raid with you when you only need 9 more. Pro players only get mad at me.
What I've noticed is this company LOVES to tell us what we enjoy. Just do as we ask and your company would stop drowning.
so basically they saw what was popular and removed it just because hardcore players (like 5% of player base?) took advantage of it?
How do these companies even make profit?
Dropping 10-man raids as the playerbase was in freefall was such a stupid decision. Classic Blizzard tho.
10 man would never have been popular if Blizz hadn't already killed guilds and social interaction in their game. A solution to a problem they created, which they then fucked up again. Shocking
Its hilarious how incompetent Blizzard is. They finally start to learn from their fuck up and stop making small raids.. only to shoot themselves in the foot because their current player base are now entitled lazy fks that won't play together or try to defeat anything difficult. Good job Blizz.. only a decade late on figuring this shit out.
10:25 Many people may not be able to meet the new challenge… well let’s define this new challenge. This challenge is meeting 20 other player in game who are not world of Warcraftly handicapped. I could barely clear garrosh on heroic as a ret pally with a 576 Ilvl. I’d maintain 500k dps in the fight due to AOE. Only being topped by a lock in the group I cleared. We solo healed the fight and had a Druid warrior tank. P
Deathwing was the last hero added to HotS before maintenance mode and he is sort of different like the others, as he cannot be healed. But I see your point.
Blizzard misses on millions of normal Players to Please zur few professional ones.
They basically said it's about what they want and not what the community wants
In older MMOs, large endgame grouping was eaiser cuz you just needed people, anyone that was available would do, the content itself wasn't THAT hard. Also it was more flexible, the more people you had, the better, but you could manage with less.
With modern end-game raiding though, you needed EVERY member to perform well just to make incremental progress. In such a setting, requring 20 of such people was just asking for head banging.